I might have missed this note but are there any plans to add some type of log shooting or color profiles to spark? I’m noticing only rec709. Im not really expecting a full blown proprietary log profile but even a lightweight and open source log profile would be really nice.
thanks!
Hi, just to clarify — are you referring to adding different Log/profile options for the HDMI output and the camera’s built-in monitoring display?
I’m asking about a log video file to help in flexibility in color grading. Common profiles includes Sony’s s-log and canon’s C-log. There’s other open source log profiles though (Freefly used the very light log setting HLG Beta). I believe it’s pretty important to be able to deliver a flat profile on professional sets and workflows.
I feel like in the demos we discussed it would having a log setting, no?
I understand that it’s less important with a raw video file but never-the-less, is a contrasty rec709 “profile” going to be our only option? What happens when ProRes is released?
I mentioned the color space output in this post: Pixboom ARRIVED, Ask me anything - #15 by K.F.Wright
As you can see in that post, the default option is a fully saturated, full contrast Rec709 look. Does moving the saturation and contrast sliders to -100 remove the look and give us the native LOG profile, or are those sliders just desaturating and de-contrasting a baked in 709 look?
It would be great if we could choose to record/monitor a native LOG look so we could apply custom LUTs in camera or on the monitor, and then from the resulting PXBC files maybe the software has a checkbox we could click/unclick if we want to bake in a LUT or leave it in LOG on the export.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I think there are actually two slightly different cases here, and it’s worth separating them.
First, for recording: some cameras, like Sony or Canon, start with 12-bit or 14-bit native sensor data, then use a Log curve when compressing that data into a lower-bit-depth format such as 10-bit video. The Log curve redistributes the tonal range — for example, giving more code values to the shadows and fewer to the highlights — so the file size and data rate can be reduced while still preserving as much grading flexibility as possible.
Spark records linear RAW, without that kind of bit-depth reduction process, so for RAW recording there isn’t really a need to apply a Log curve in-camera.
For future ProRes support, that’s a different case. ProRes would be a non-RAW format after white balance, CCM, demosaicing, and other ISP processing, so it will affect the color pipeline. In that context, offering Log curve options would definitely be meaningful and useful.
Second, there is also the monitoring / workflow side of Log. This is a bit different from Log as a recording compression curve. In this case, the goal is more about giving users a convenient starting point for on-set monitoring and post-production matching — for example, helping the image start closer to an “ARRI-like”, “RED-like”, or other familiar color response before further grading.
For this part, we are considering working with colorists to create official transform / restoration LUTs, so users can have a better initial look and a more consistent color workflow.
Got it — I think my previous reply may have answered part of this as well, haha.
But yes, I understand what you mean: having the option to monitor or export with a more neutral / Log-style starting point, instead of only a contrasty Rec709 look, would be very useful for custom LUT workflows.
Thanks for this very thorough and technical reply! I think lots of folks will appreciate it, myself included.
I roughly assumed this would be the situation when dealing with the RAW output of the Spark but am a bit thrown off by using Red in RWG and canon raw in cinegammut the files are still so flat out of camera. I thought this might apply to this system as well but I guess that has to do with the linear raw nature of how the spark starts that image pipeline. I’m sure there are many reasons for this, and this forum might not be the place to learn, but what you addressed does make sense. For regular ProRes and for monitoring purposes though I definitely appreciate that yall are looking into a possible solution for the future.
means a lot that yall are on here taking the time to chat with us on all this stuff! Cheers!
when playing with the CineDNGs of the sample footage, you can switch it to LOG in Resolve, the same way you’d process any other RAW camera.
I am a colorist, and would be happy to help with this, which will be easier once I receive my camera.
How are you using RWG with your Red footage? When I use the IPP2 color science I get very nice results from the start, not the flat, drab log look that everyone hates because it looks dreadful.
It sounds like you’re doing something wrong in your color management.
It’s definitely possible I’m doing something “wrong” but it’s the way we’ve been operating for a decade. I’m a camera operator, not a colorist and operate on direction of the productions needs whatever that may be. With that being said, when using DJI cameras in raw we’re always shooting dlog and the delivered files are flat. It’s a very common request to deliver a flat raw file to DIT so that’s why I’m curious about the lack of that ability.
I understand that it’s not absolutely needed when shooting raw it’s still just common though. I’m just trying to learn and I think others may be confused a bit as well so I appreciate the discussion.
The DIT is probably viewing the footage in either rec709 or DCI-P3, depending on the show. Red footage is linear, so it looks terrible in its native form; the gamut and gamma determine the transforms used for viewing and grading.
With DJI footage if you’re handing over either ProRes or HEVC (aka H.265) or similar, since it’s already de-mosaicked the color space and gamma you choose are baked, unlike with raw.
That said, having RWG+Log3g10 baked into the metadata does enable the DIT to skip a step in dailies, since the software will read that and choose the correct IDT without the DIT having to do any work.
Yeah totally they are viewing in either color space of course and the spark displays via rec709.
I’m specifically talking about shooting CDNG and ProRes raw (not h.265) with either the inspire 3 or 4d and the files are still flat when received by the DIT and appear as Dlog files. In addition, it’s very convenient to be able to view the non LUT log look while shooting in order to help read exposure values and transform via specific dlog LUTs.
but agreed my current workflow is exactly that - RWG+log3g10 and have had zero complaints from DIT or clients.
I think we’re getting a bit off track though - but concerning the spark it seems like previous comment stating that you can turn it into a flat look in resolve is possible? I’m unsure how that’s the case if it’s inherently linear.
I obviously can’t experiment with it myself yet since I’m still waiting for my Spark, but my guess is that there’s some gamut + gamma transform baked into the Pixboom Cine app doing the conversion from its internal raw format to the export format. At least, that’s what I’m hoping because that’s fixable as an update to Pixboom Cine.